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Klavdij · Objavljeno: 17 Jan 2015 11:18 Naslov sporočila:

Aha ok.
_________________
Lep pozdrav

Bogdan · Objavljeno: 24 Apr 2015 07:51 Naslov sporočila:

Danes je dan D. V švicarski Lausanni se bo kmalu začelo letošnje plenarno zasedanje CIAM-a. Nekaj pomembnih tem, predlogov za spremembe in dopolnitve športnega pravilnika je na dnevnem redu, nestrpno čakamo na rezultate glasovanj o njih. Nekaj kontaktov imamo med tistimi, ki se ga udeležujejo, Per Findahl, Allard van Wallene, Zlatko Todoroski.... Računamo na njihove informacije. Kakor hitro bodo dostopne, jih bomo posredovali tudi tukaj.

Bogdan · Objavljeno: 26 Apr 2015 06:47 Naslov sporočila:

Summary of CIAM F1 Decisions

Information in text from Chuck Etherington - some transcriptions issues

pg 25 (a) 3.1.1 [Ban variable geometry in all classes - Germany] withdrawn.
Pg 25 (b) 3.1.2 [F1A - 40 m towline - Poland] withdrawn.
Pg 25 (c) [ 5 rounds in World and Continental Champs - FFTSC ]& 26
(e) 3.1.3 [4 minutes first round all classes in WC and CC - FFTSC]& 3.1.7 approved.
Pg 26 (d) 3.1.7 approved.
Pg 27 (f) 3.1.7 [F1A 4 minutes in WC and CC - Poland] withdrawn.
Pg 27 (g) 3.1.8 [ 6 minutes first fly off round - FFTSC]approved.
Pg 27 (h) 3.1.8, 3.2.8, 3.3.8 [split fly offs - FFTSC]approved with amended language to be non-mandatory.
Pg 28 (I) 3.1.11 [ 35 m F1A towline - Austria] withdrawn.
Pg 28 (j) 3.1.11 [ F1A 1.7mm dia towline etc - UK ] withdrawn.
Pg 30 (k) 3.2.1 [F1B ban variable geometry - Germany] withdrawn.
Pg 30 (I) 3.2.2 [F1B 25 grm motor - Poland] withdrawn.
Pg 30 (m) 3.2.11[F1B - prop must be turning at launch - UK] withdrawn.
Pg 31 (n) 3.3.1 [F1C ban variable geometry - Germany) withdrawn.
Pg 31 (o) part 1, 3.3.2 [F1C - use ethanol fuel - Austria] withdrawn.
Pg 31 (o) part 2, 3.3.2 [F1C - must have RDT - Austria0approved with modified language.
Pg 32 (p) 3.3.2 [F1C must use synthetic oil - Denmark ] withdrawn

. Pg 33 (q) [F1C Ethanol fuel - Germany] 3.3.2 withdrawn.
Pg 33 (r) 3.3.2 [F1C - 4 second motor run -Poland] approved.
Pg 33 (s) 3.3.2 [F1C - 4 second engine run -UK] withdrawn.
Pg 35 (u) 3.5.1 [Mini event - ban variable geometry - FFTSC] approved with modified language.

F1S - approved with ammended language on timing

2017 world champs: F1A, B, C Hungary; F1D Romania; F1E Romania;
Jr F1A, B, P Macedonia.

Bogdan · Objavljeno: 28 Apr 2015 17:45 Naslov sporočila:

Takole je v Lausanni potekalo modrovanje o predlogih...

...na tehničnem pododboru CIAM...

...in na plenarnem zasedanju CIAM

Tudi kdo iz 'naših prostora' se je našel tam... (Slobodan Pelagić, Srbija in Zdravko Todoroski, Makedonija)

Bogdan · Objavljeno: 28 Apr 2015 17:51 Naslov sporočila:

Dva odziva na izide glasovanj iz kalifornijskega SEN-a:

Roger Morell, urednikov komentar:
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editorial

The Models
The only changes to the F1ABC World Champs class models was the reduction of the F1C engine run from 5 seconds to 4 seconds and the requirement to have an operating RDT system for F1C models.
In the Mini-events and F1E flappers and folder were banned. But seeing no one used them this is not a big deal.
Very importantly the USA E-36 class was introduced as F1S, adding an electric event to the mini classes. Very important to have a proven small field electric event.

The Biggest Change?

Probably the biggest changes was making the World Champs classes now 5 round contests no longer 7. The rules state that the number of rounds apply to World and Continental Championships. The rules do not actually say how many rounds in a ‘regular’ contest that most of us fly in. But there was informal confirmation from Ian Kaynes that the new flying rules would also apply to World Cup events from 2016.

This change in flying rules also increased the first round F1A to 4 and suggest that if the weather conditions were permitting the 5th round should be 4 minutes. It made the first fly off round a 6 minute max.

This means that various National organizations would need to decide if they want to apply them to domestic events and team selection programs.

The reduction in the number of the rounds is perhaps a concession to the increasing age of many of the sportsmen. Already in the World Cup calendar some events are 5 rounds to give people more time to retrieve their models or fit in a day shortened by daylight or windy period. For example events in Israel are usually 5 rounds to avoid a windy period that occurs most afternoons.

The Disconnect

In the lead up to the CIAM meeting there was clearly as disconnect in the Free Flight community as some people believed that some significant changes were needed but the basis behind that belief was not always clear. This is partly because it is not clear what the mission statement or objective of the rules, in particular those for the F1 ABCDEP events. For example is to provide a frame work for World and Continental Championships or are they events where everyone from beginner to expert or youth to retired person should be able to take part in? or even win? Or somewhere in between.

Whose role is it to create new events and evolve existing ones? The National Aero Clubs, the FAI, the special interest groups like the NFFS?, or the FAC. Or is it Hobby King, Tower Hobbies, Ripmax or DIY Drones?. Does how we conduct events at the top level affect recruitment or retention, even if many people have no desire to take part in those events because, there are already plenty of Free Flight events that they take part in and suit their desires, personal circumstances and budgets.

To be continued …
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Pa še, nekoliko kisel komentar (verjetno) nekoga ki je podpiral spremembe.

Nick Bosdet
---
(recieved before CIAM meeting results)
Let put a few facts on the table. 1) I was asked why I no longer flew my FAI gliders and rubber models, the BMFA FFTC has had the gumption to ask questions about challenging problems that FAI FF faces. 2) I explained that I did not find yanking a glider up to 85 metres a satisfying experience, since it was rapidly lost to sight downwind, seems pointless and unrewarding.3) The experience of having to fight/ face down would be model thieves 's is not great. Free flighters nor anyone else has the right to come tramping across my fields! Wake up the world has changed ! 4) The need to go Lost Hills or similar to trim satisfactorily is stark raving bonkers.5) Above all I am sick to death, from hearing from introspective, whinging sportsmen about how THEIR models would be made out of date. What about my F1A wings with their 5.5 mm wing joiners. What about fliers with their electronic relatchable towhooks with multiple chances to launch if their current launch is not going to be good?What about the 30 or 40 odd F1A flyers who fly the class nationally, what about looking after their interests, rather than a small elite bunch. The rules for the FAI ff classes are not just about world champion want to be's. IT IS ABOUT ALL OF US Do not forget it.7) If the current rules are so good, why have so many pre-existing FAI free flight flyers given up??? Cool

Yes keep your existing FAI FF rules for Lost Hills. Yes through discussion and common sense rewrite a new set of rules to suit smaller, windier, populated landscapes, if they turn out to be more than Northern European great. 9) Above all it does not matter if a massive breaking up of FAI FF occurs, it has got out of touch with real world realities and is happening now.10) So why on earth would I spend £2000 on a new model? Totally and utterly nuts.
Enjoy it whilst you can, work is more enjoyable, cheerio Nick

Bogdan · Objavljeno: 11 Jun 2015 10:51 Naslov sporočila:

Na enem od srečanj predstavnikov FAI članic so predstavili nekaj projektov, med njimi tudi dva, ki bi znala biti zanimiva za organizatorje večjih tekmovanj (1. in 2. kategorije - WCh, ECh, WC) v aeromodelarstvu.

- Revision of the Organiser Agreement
The project is in its final phase. The new Organiser Agreement will take the shape of a short legal document common to all sports with specific appendices for each of them.
- FAI Competition Management System
A presentation was made of this recently released tool that is offered to Event Organisers for their use. It facilitates the management of registrations, the checking of sporting licenses and the approval of participants by FAI Members.

Na kratko prevod:

- Projekt 'Pogodba z organizatorjem' je v zaključni fazi. Izdelan bo v obliki krajšega pravno zavezujočega dokumenta, ki bo enak za vse športe, vseboval pa bo tudi dodatke, specifične za vsakega med njimi.
Torej bo po novem potrebno skleniti pogodbo s FAI tudi za, recimo, organizacijo svetovnih pokalov, podobno, kot to že imamo s FAI. Dobra stran bo gotovo to, da bo verjetno pogodba prinesla nekaj več resnosti glede zahtev do organizatorjev. Za upati je le, da ne bo vsebovala kakšnih finančnih pogojev, ki bi osiromašili organizatorje.

- Sistem za upravljanje tekmovanj FAI
Pred kratkim je bilo izdelano orodje (verjetno gre za spletno aplikacijo), ki bo ponujeno v uporabo organizatorjem tekmovanj in je namenjeno za upravljanje z registracijo, preverjanjem športnih licenc in potrjevanje udeležencev s strani članic FAI.
Tudi to je lahko dobro, prinese lahko nekaj več reda, sploh, če bo orodje v prihodnje dopolnjeno s podporo delu z rezultati. FAI bo verjetno za uporabo orodja želel kaj zaračunati. Upajmo, da ne ali vsaj ne preveč.

Bogdan

Zanimivo razmišljanje v zvezi s spremembo števila turnusov s 7 na 5 na tekmovanjih 1. kategorije, objavljeno v SEN-u. Verjetno smo vsak pri sebi že razmišljali v tej smeri:
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5 Round Rule change

From: Marty Schroedter

After all these months that we've had the announcement that we will be going to 5 rounds next year, I find it interesting that nobody seems to mind this change. Maybe everyone has been too focused on trying to eliminate the changes being made in F1C so nothing has been said about reducing the rounds? I for one am concerned about this change and will explain my views, maybe others will agree with me, maybe not. There are some very obvious concerns that I have with it that I will point out.

I am wondering if anyone was paying attention to the results during the World Championships and noticed just how many competitors were still clean after 5 rounds of competition? I carefully watched the results unfold and noted this because I for one don't understand why the CIAM has changed the rules starting next year, that all continental competitions and world championships will now be 5 rounds mandatory. I've written previously asking why this was done, I never got a response. Was the rule changed so the people that didn't have the luxury of chase vehicle only have to chase for 5 rounds instead of 7? For those contests where the conditions are such every CD has the right to shorten the amount of rounds based on conditions, so I ask again, why make this a mandatory rule? If it was to help the CD and make it less rounds, then they only made things worse for them.

After 5 rounds in F1A in Mongolia there were 41 people still clean. In F1B there were 44, in F1C I believe it was 26. If the contest went to the flyoffs after the afternoon break, I believe there needed to be a minimum of two timers at each pole. Multiply those above numbers by two to see how many timers they would have needed to time the first flyoff. Do you think the organizers at the WC could have arranged 82 much less 88 timers?
Here's my point, after 7 rounds in F1A there were only 27 people left, 31 in F1B and I believe only 19 in F1C. That is a huge difference in not only the amount of people flying left but in the amount of people needed to time.
Those last two rounds averaged at least a 25% decline in competitors maybe more. Isn't that what those last two rounds are for in the first place to help eliminate people and make it tougher to make the flyoffs? I am sure all the people that dropped the 6th or 7th round at the WC would have LOVED for it to have been only 5 as proposed for next year.

As a contest director, I know one of the hardest jobs of running a contest is making sure everyone at the line/pole has a timer and is ready when the round starts. When it's time for the flyoffs everyone needs at least one and in the big contests, everyone should have two if at all possible. I couldn't imagine having to get even 50 timers to time much less 88. Let's look at 5 rounds another way. Let's say people drop a round and don't make it to the flyoffs in a 5 round contest. If after the 5th round do you think these people will volunteer to stick around for hours just so they can be a timer or do you think they'd rather go back to their trailer or motel to get out of the sun and rest? We need those people to help time so to only make it 5 rounds you will not only have more people in the flyoffs now
you'll have less people to time as well. We don't pay people to be there like the World Champs, we rely on people that were competing that dropped to stick around and help time. How can we ask people to stay around the field for hours just to time the flyoffs?

More people in the flyoff means more planes in the air at once, and more chances for midair, line crosses etc. Changing the rounds from 7 to 5 has nothing to do with the reduction of performance, if that's what they were trying to accomplish, it's simply just helps those contest where the weather is such that it eliminates rounds and makes it easier on the competitors. I cannot think of any other reason for this change.

I hope people really think about this because I see it as nothing more than a CD's nightmare now reducing it to only 5 rounds. All I ask is, with more people making the flyoff only having to fly 5 rounds, who is going to be available to time? Convince me this change makes sense. Anyone.. What good is making the flyoff if there is no one left to time you?
And on a personal point of view, if I were lucky enough to make the US team and fly in a World Championship, I certainly would prefer going there after spending all that time and money, to be able to fly 7 rounds instead of just 5. But that's just me.

Let's hear your thoughts on this I think it's time we speak up. Pros and cons are welcome. Is everyone happy with only flying 5 rounds come next year?

Marty Schroedter

Bogdan

Mimogrede - glede na novo pravilo, glej prejšnjo objavo, ta tekmovanja, torej svetovna in evropska prvenstva, po sedanjem pravilniku za izbor reprezentance ne bodo več imela teže pri teh izborih, saj bodo maksimalni doseženi časi lahko le 900 sekund.

Predlagam, da čim prej oblikujemo predlog za spremembo pravilnika, ki bi tudi rezultatom na teh tekmovanjih dal enako težo, kot na ostalih.

Ena od možnosti bi lahko recimo bila ta:
- da se za izbor upoštevajo le tekmovanja z najmanj 5 izvedenimi turnusi
- doseženi rezultat v sekundah v rednem delu, brez flyoffa se preračuna v odstotek glede na maksimalni možen čas, ki bi lahko bil dosežen.
- za skupno uvrstitev se upošteva na dve decimalki zaokroženo povprečje:
var. A - VSEH ali
var. B - le določenega števila (recimo 5)
najboljših odstotkov na tekmovanjih v tekočem letu, po enakem izboru, kot do sedaj.

--------------------------------------
Primeri posamezne tekme:
1.
A - 7 turnusov: maksimalni možen čas 1290s
B - doseženi rezultati 210+180+180+180+180+180+180 = 1290s
za reprezentanco se upošteva B/A = 100%

2.
A - 7 turnusov: maksimalni možen čas 1290s
B - doseženi rezultati 195+180+180+155+180+180+180 = 1250s
za reprezentanco se upošteva B/A = 96,90%

3.
A - 5 turnusov: maksimalni možen čas 900s
B - doseženi rezultati 210+180+180+180+180 = 900s
za reprezentanco se upošteva B/A = 100%

4.
A - 5 turnusov: maksimalni možen čas 900s
B - doseženi rezultati 210+180+180+176+180 = 896s
za reprezentanco se upošteva B/A = 99,56%

5.
A - 4 turnusi zaradi slabega vremena: maksimalni možen čas 720s
B - doseženi rezultati 210+180+180+180+180 = 720s
za reprezentanco se NE upošteva
6.
A - 4 turnusi zaradi slabega vremena: maksimalni možen čas 720s
B - doseženi rezultati 210+180+170+180+180 = 710s
za reprezentanco se NE upošteva

V skupnem seštevku za reprezentanco dajejo povprečja zgornjih 6 posameznih tekem naslednje možnosti:

Var. A: Izračuna se povprečje vseh doseženih rezultatov:
(100+96,90+100+99,56)/4=99,12%

Var. B: Rezultati petih najboljših tekmovanj se preračunajo na 5 (s tem se izognemo situaciji, da je nekdo le na eni tekmi in doseže 100%):
(100+96,90+100+99,56)/5=79,29%
----------
Pri teh izračunih imamo opravka z malim številom rezultatov, pri večjem je stvar še enostavnejša, tekmovalci z manj tekmovanji od predpisanega števila so v primeru B še bolj daleč od možnosti vstopa.

Drži, da so flyoffi dodaten pokazatelj kvalitete tekmovalcev, drži pa tudi, da tega že dosedaj nismo posebej upoštevali, s to spremembo bi vsaj nekoliko izenačevali tekmovanja z le 5 turnusi s tistimi s 7 turnusi. Tekmovanj s 5 turnusi pa je za svetovni pokal vedno več.
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Naj se debata začne Smile

Bogdan

No, flyoffe vsaj delno upoštevamo s tistim delom pravilnika za izbor, ki določa, da je kot zadnji element v primeru enakosti ob upoštevanju sedmih najboljših rezultatov odločilna končni dosežek v skupni uvrstitvi svetovnega pokala. Pri tej pa gotovo dosežki flyoffov nekaj veljajo.

Damjan

-Potrebno bo dobiti pravilnik v čistopisu
-Če se prav spomnim, naj bi bila prvi in zadnji start 240 sec
-Sprejem tega pravila je dokaz, da na CIAM vsaj trenutno nimajo pojma, kaj s spremembami sploh želijo doseči
-strinjam se, da bo treba pravilnik dodelati. Verjetno bo res edina rešitev razultat v % možnih točk, pod pogojem, da šteje najmanj pet startov...
-v globalu jaz ne bi veliko spreminjal, le prilagoditi se bo treba novim razmeram.....

Skratka, kot je rekel Bogdan, stvar za razmišljanje v jesenskih mesecih....

LP

Bogdan

Seme sva posadila, Damjan... Mogoče bo kaj zraslo do novembra Smile

Damjan

Bojim se, da to "seme" ne bo obrodilo dosti sadov, vsaj glede na dosedanje izkušnje ne....

Še sedaj mi namreč ne gre iz glave neaktivnost oz. neudeležba večine FF društev na letošnji skupščini, ko smo se , ob aktivnem lobiranju, sprenevedanju ter dvoličnosti "nasprotne" strani, odrekli samostojnosti naše podkomisije.... O tej temi bo govora tudi na seji podkomisije...

Osebno pa mislim, da je predlog glede % doseženega dobra osnova... sploh, dokler ne vidimo, kako bo s št. startov na tekmah svet.pokala. Predvidevam, da se bo tudi marsikateri organizator Svet. pokala "pridružil" temu...
Zato bi, dokler se stvar ne izkristalizira, bil za naslednje leto bolj previden s spremembami....

Bogdan · Objavljeno: 08 Jan 2016 07:15 Naslov sporočila:

Objavljen je bil svež Športni pravilnik FAI za leto 2016.

Sporting Code Section 4 - ABR
Sporting Code Section 4 - F1 Free Flight

Slovenski prevod razdelkov, ki so pomembni za SLOvenske F1ABCHQ tekmovalce je v pripravi.

Bogdan · Objavljeno: 09 Feb 2016 13:36 Naslov sporočila:

Debata na nemškem forumu o novih pravilih FAI s pomenljivim naslovom:

Quo vadis Neues Ciam Regelwerk?

Splošni vtis je, da marsikoga moti zmanjšanje števila turnusov s 7 na 5, flyoff v dveh skupinah...

Damjan · Objavljeno: 09 Feb 2016 15:34 Naslov sporočila:

V tekih primerih mi je žal, da ne znam nemško....

Sicer pa tudi meni novi sistem ni všeč...Niti ne 5 startov, ki po mojih dosedanjih izkušnjah pomenijo precejšnje znižanje kriterijev za fly off...
Niti dvodelni fly off....

Ostaja dejstvo, da so spremembe pravil izglasovali ljudje, ki jih že dolgo ni več v tekmovalnem prostem letu, ali pa sploh nikoli niso bili....

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